tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post8657647370625877145..comments2024-03-05T21:05:36.848-05:00Comments on CommentaramaFilms: Guest Review: The Reader (2008)AndrewPricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-6556113389238262362014-01-24T12:58:42.699-05:002014-01-24T12:58:42.699-05:00Andrew, exactly. This view doesn´t excuse the nazi...Andrew, exactly. This view doesn´t excuse the nazis and their followers, it makes them scarier because they look terribly familiar and modern. <br /><br />They had something for the right (national strength), the left (social justice, equality) and the middle (jobs, safe streets, upward mobility). They even ran up the obligatory mountain of debt.<br /><br />Oh, and they were sensitive to public opinion, too. That is why they took efforts to hide some of their crimes and delayed the full mobilisation of industry until well into the war, when it was too late. Until about 1943, women were not required to work in armaments factories. They remembered that constant hardship drove Germans to revolution in 1918. <br /><br />To be fair, many saw the evil in their agenda and character. But I think that hindsight and those clips of a screaming Hitler obscure some of their attraction. We see a dictator in uniform. Perhaps people back then saw the uniform of a common soldier. A simple man with an Austrian accent. You know how important it is in modern elections, to look and talk like "one of us"? <br /><br />Despite this, Hitler was not elected by a majority. People weren´t entirely sold. But if there had been elections in, say, 1937 or 1940, he might have done vastly better despite the public brutality against opponents and jews. Because for many people, until the middle of the war, the nazis delivered. El Gordonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-7151542048918926612014-01-24T12:35:34.854-05:002014-01-24T12:35:34.854-05:00Koshcat, let´s not forget envy. The Jews had a tra...Koshcat, let´s not forget envy. The Jews had a tradition of learning, hard work and success and were widely resented for it. Perhaps this goes back to the 19th century when local sovereigns and clergy did not encourage simple people to study a lot. By 1930, if you wanted to get ahead in academia, law, art or public administration, chances are there was a capable jew in front of you. I think many reasons why people supported the nazis were entirely materialistic. A couple of years ago people in Indonesia rioted against the successful Chinese minority there. I think there were killings. Same thing, basically.El Gordonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-73100224691910530352014-01-23T19:51:42.859-05:002014-01-23T19:51:42.859-05:00Concentration camps are often an unfortunate neces...Concentration camps are often an unfortunate necessity in war. We have one now sitting in Cuba. The issue with the Germans is that their plan wasn't to just concentrate potential enemies during war. They had decided to de-populate large areas for future German immigration. The camps often started off as work camps but it took to long to work people to death and was easier to gas them. If you look at it purely from a efficiency point of view, their choice was the only one, which is even more ghastly. My main point of the article is that in a free society that respects the individual, decisions like that would be more difficult. They are still made and even if they make sense are not welcomed (Death Panels anyone?).<br /><br />I think it is easy to sit back in our warm houses and safe environment and criticize the individual for playing along rather than going for sabotage or insubordination. My argument is that those choices are much more difficult when you are faced with real hardships. In addition, many of the Germans were raised to believe that many of these groups were their enemy and stood in the way of greatness. In addition, the camps themselves dehumanized people making it much easier to tell yourself that you are caring for dirty animals rather than humans. Innocent is our term for many of these people. They were seen as enemies of the German people who were determined to destroy Germany. They didn't see innocent children; they saw future enemy soldiers. They didn't see innocent women; they saw collaborators.Koshcathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00552108950848576633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-49024892918815674072014-01-23T17:25:42.480-05:002014-01-23T17:25:42.480-05:00Koshcat - Well, that's an interesting take. A...Koshcat - Well, that's an interesting take. And here I thought I had argued for absolute moral standards! I shall have to walk this back.<br /><br />Given that a "camp" by definition held innocent people as prisoners and could be oriented to either slave labor production or extermination (both crimes against God and man), I think there remains a moral imperative to either interfere at any level or to refuse to cooperate. Therefore, my arguement is that there is no range of ethical behavior outside of either sabotage or insubordination.<br /><br />On a related topic, I recall a lot being written on the extent to which the Germans as a people were aware of the holocaust. As more research was done, especially after the fall of the Soviet Union, it's been shown that much of the population were well aware of the existence of the camps and their purpose. For a variety of reasons, they were not motivated to do anything about it.<br /><br />Frankly, I think even the American practice during WWII to inter innocent Americans of Japanese, German and Italian descent was morally objectionable despite the fact that they were treated well on the prisoner standard and not subjected to forced labor. They were innocent - that is the key factor - and any order to cooperate in maintaining such an operation is an illegal order.KRSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-9673024567734926872014-01-23T16:17:03.736-05:002014-01-23T16:17:03.736-05:00El Gordo, That's a great point. One of the mi...El Gordo, That's a great point. One of the mistakes that Hollywood makes with the Nazis is to show them as some sort of evil hulking creature and the citizen of German were either victims of terror who fought back and tried to save Jews or were brainwashed by the evil creature and became part of it. There is no middle, nor is there any awareness of human nature.<br /><br />I think people would be shocked to realize that Hitler never saw himself as evil, nor did the other Nazis. They saw themselves as noble leaders who were going to free their people from the oppression of others. Yes, there were some sadists, but most saw their evil as the means that justified the ends. And the Germans who supported them saw them as idealists who were going to build a new and better world for all the world to worship. Others followed them because they handed out the goodies. Others followed them because they were in charge and that is what you do... do what you are told by the authorities.<br /><br />The problem with this kind of presentation is that (1) people instantly think you're endorsing Nazism if you make them anything less than melodramatic evil, (2) people wouldn't want to accept this as true because so many of them would see themselves reflected in your presentation -- and they don't want to see themselves as evil either, even as they scream to have the wealth of the rich stripped from them or their neighbors deported or they think nothing of following evil/illegal orders, (3) it indicts liberalism, which is premised on the idea of making a better world by forcing those who don't act correctly to get in line or be punished, and liberals don't want anything to suggest that their use of force could be immoral, and (4) it requires a level of subtlety that isn't popular in Hollywood anymore.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-4296835070737607052014-01-23T16:05:03.177-05:002014-01-23T16:05:03.177-05:00I haven´t seen the movie. It may be good but readi...I haven´t seen the movie. It may be good but reading the plot summary and comments here, there doesn´t seem to be any point or meaning. At least not with regard to her illiteracy and the horrors of the third reich. I know Germans these days (if they are not indifferent to history) tend to see themselves as victims of "the war" and "the nazis" and increasingly, the allies and their bombing campaign. Wasn´t the church in the movie set on fire by an air attack?<br /><br />A bit off topic, I have never seen a movie that really shows how a highly literate, ostensibly christian nation that had been a center of science and culture for decades could fall to the nazis (though it must be said, the jews were disproportionately responsible for culture and science). It always seems to be something that "just happened" because the masses were duped. <br /><br />I think the reason we never see it is that the recognition would be too painful. It is more comforting to show the nazis as something apart from the people, like aliens or heel-clicking remnants of 19th century conservatism and militarism. <br /><br />The truth is, we know them very well. They were revolutionaries. Young, full of energy and attractive (in the context of the time). Artistic. Creative. They rejected the old order, the old elites. They promised change. Equality. A future for a depressed nation, a positive identity and selfimage. A clean break with the troubled past. They appealed to romanticism. <br /><br />They were a hit among students even before they captured workers and farmers. And the masses were not duped. They really got something out of it. The nazis passed very liberal (in the modern sense) labor laws. Protected the professions from competitions. Distributed jobs and treasure looted from jews and other countries. Delivered big stimulus for industry and construction. Were conscious of health and environmental issues. They loved mothers and children and sent them on exciting trips. They practically invented holidays for the working class. <br /><br />Except for the violence and mass murder, it is <i>modern politics</i>. Far too many bright people looked at them and saw a model to emulate. What else is new?El Gordonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-79622481583958582222014-01-23T14:47:11.998-05:002014-01-23T14:47:11.998-05:00KRS - I think you actually proved my point that th...KRS - I think you actually proved my point that there wasn't absolutes. Some of the SS officers were evil murderers and some were not. I think it is also important that there are concentration camps where political prisoners and prisoners of war how housed in a focused area (concentrated) for easier control. As many or more people died in these camps from malnutrition, disease, and over-work. Then there were death camps where the only purpose was to kill as many people as possible. An individual could work at a concentration camp and even be harsh or firm with prisoners and still be within a reasonable range of ethical behavior. Most of these people were not put on trial or found to be guilty of war crimes. Often orders would come in to transfer prisoners from one camp to another. Occasionally it was to provide more workers for a new construction project but often was a euphemism to send the prisoners for planned extermination. Officers in these camps, especially SS officers, often had a pretty good life (well fed and housed). They could refuse this order but to do so you could be charged with insubordination. You may not be shot but you may end up on the front line somewhere. I suspect many choose to believe that the prisoners where just being transferred for work. However, it is clear that many enjoyed their job a little too much.Koshcathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00552108950848576633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-11073174460429871582014-01-23T13:53:27.367-05:002014-01-23T13:53:27.367-05:00T-Rav's point is spot on. There are numerous ...T-Rav's point is spot on. There are numerous instances wherein Nazi officers and enlisted refused immoral orders. There were SS officers who refused to carry out the Ardeatine cave massacre in Italy (reprisal for the killing of SS troops by partizans) and in that instance they were told that Hitler had ordered the shootings. In no instance is there an indication that any of these individuals were punished. It may have happened elsewhere in the war, but, as T-Rav says, historians find plenty of cases of Wehrmacht and SS refusing such orders and having their decision respected.<br /><br />These facts are even more damning for those who "were just following orders" because they demonstrate there was a free choice available to the lowest ranks. KRSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-69430375060301947622014-01-23T01:09:26.517-05:002014-01-23T01:09:26.517-05:00Ground= crowd
The movie is told from Michael'...Ground= crowd<br /><br />The movie is told from Michael's point of view and he may be an unreliable narrator. We see hints that she often isn't a warm human being and his love for her is not really returned in kind. They also show that she really didn't understand the seriousness of her crimes. In addition she would be the perfect liberal: shut up, do your duty, go have sex with young boys, repeat. Education can't cure evil but individual liberty can help lessen its grip. Koshcathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00552108950848576633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-48779646905040809892014-01-23T00:57:05.521-05:002014-01-23T00:57:05.521-05:00T-Rav-
There are plenty of examples of bad behavi...T-Rav-<br /><br />There are plenty of examples of bad behavior that occurs without the threat of violence. Most whites in the 50s and 60s were not violent to blacks but many still participated in their segregation. Even in childhood an individual may act cruel to another student when with a ground but not do the same action when they are alone. Koshcathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00552108950848576633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-59200544930913814362014-01-22T21:28:10.658-05:002014-01-22T21:28:10.658-05:00I remember hearing some talk about this movie when...I remember hearing some talk about this movie when it came out, but I never saw it. Honestly, not sure I'd want to see an older naked Kate Winslet. (I denounce myself.)<br /><br />As to the moral issues surrounding the movie, there's a misunderstanding here which I think needs to be cleared up. Nobody "had a gun to their heads" when it came to the killing of Jews--no Germans, at least. A number of historians who have done in-depth studies of these killing operations (Christopher Browning, for example) have shown that the low-level participants were not coerced into either killing or assisting with the killing. In fact, in a number of cases, they were directly offered the chance by their superiors to excuse themselves from the activity (which precious few took advantage of). Of course, they might be subject to abuse and ostracism from their comrades or co-workers, but that's an order of magnitude different from being told "It's your life or the Jew's." <br /><br />Which is not to say there aren't moral quandries surrounding the Holocaust. Several of the camp survivors have commented on how frequently one was simultaneously a victim and a perpetrator. Nevertheless, the premise and plot of this film, as far as I understand it, disturb me, as it seems to be an echo of the Left's undying belief that human evil can and will be eradicated through education and other mechanisms of "progress." T-Ravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861218035729479354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-56283456451469016052014-01-22T19:07:46.838-05:002014-01-22T19:07:46.838-05:00Koshcat, thanks for this great post!
I agree with ...Koshcat, thanks for this great post!<br />I agree with the theory about metaphor for the naive youth who were being taken advantage of by the older, brutal, knowing Nazis. That fits.<br />I believe it was difficult for me to interpret this film because I was so terribly turned off by the "child porn" presentation. I was so disgusted that I kept thinking, "Why am I watching this and when will it be over?"<br />My husband is always interested in seeing major actresses show their breasts-so he didn't mind:)CrisDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-80728918668802337112014-01-22T17:11:51.085-05:002014-01-22T17:11:51.085-05:00Jed -
Unlike other Holocaust movies, they don...Jed - <br /><br />Unlike other Holocaust movies, they don't show any of the atrocities. Instead you see how painful it is for Michael sit through the trial and her testimony unaware that she had this history. Prior to this trial there is very little mention of the topic. I completely agree with your last sentence. It had so much potential to be a great movie but falls short.Koshcathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00552108950848576633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-9100007162195184022014-01-22T17:07:58.865-05:002014-01-22T17:07:58.865-05:00ScottDS - I liked Munich but I admit it wasn't...ScottDS - I liked Munich but I admit it wasn't very memorable. I think showing reluctance to continue killing makes him more human and realistic.Koshcathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00552108950848576633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-59265199921252395262014-01-22T16:33:37.958-05:002014-01-22T16:33:37.958-05:00nice review, Kosh. I dismissed this one, because I...nice review, Kosh. I dismissed this one, because I feel the Holocaust is depressing, and has been done too often. It has a great cast, but appears to suffer from being so much less than it could have been.Tennessee Jedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10604275115906776992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-85968553818407432662014-01-22T15:49:33.718-05:002014-01-22T15:49:33.718-05:00Koshcat -
I remember picking up a similar negati...Koshcat - <br /><br /><i>I remember picking up a similar negative vibe regarding Munich, which should the main character having doubts about the ethics of revenge killing. To me both the initial desire and the later doubts made him more human.</i><br /><br />I never understood the criticism for <i>Munich</i> in this regard. There are no doubt legit criticisms that can be made against the film but I never saw the "Hero questioning his mission" as any kind of moral equivalence.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-16247491199230101462014-01-22T15:10:51.395-05:002014-01-22T15:10:51.395-05:00Ok. Thanks, Koschat.Ok. Thanks, Koschat.Kithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453591141757808708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-17705957069885041162014-01-22T15:10:28.003-05:002014-01-22T15:10:28.003-05:00Sorry, that wasn't it either.
I think it was ...Sorry, that wasn't it either.<br /><br />I think it was actually this one:<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_at_War_(TV_series)Koshcathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00552108950848576633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-14068279825679335832014-01-22T15:08:54.111-05:002014-01-22T15:08:54.111-05:00No, I think it was this one.
http://en.wikipedia....No, I think it was this one.<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_History_of_World_War_IIKoshcathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00552108950848576633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-64522338901311742182014-01-22T15:05:03.037-05:002014-01-22T15:05:03.037-05:00LINK<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz:_The_Nazis_and_the_%27Final_Solution%27" rel="nofollow">LINK</a>Kithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453591141757808708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-52785402285066741932014-01-22T15:01:59.719-05:002014-01-22T15:01:59.719-05:00Koschat,
Was this it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...Koschat,<br /><br />Was this it?<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz:_The_Nazis_and_the_%27Final_Solution%27 Kithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453591141757808708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-31167825232226810502014-01-22T14:58:28.730-05:002014-01-22T14:58:28.730-05:00Koschat,
I think that scene was done more to illu...Koschat,<br /><br />I think that scene was done more to illustrate Goeth's lack of humanity. What most people see as having a conscience and being capable of empathy he sees as some virus-like spell by the evil Jews.Kithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453591141757808708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-82286924903951313682014-01-22T14:57:55.862-05:002014-01-22T14:57:55.862-05:00Koshcat, That's true. In fact, one of the mor...Koshcat, That's true. In fact, one of the more interesting "war crimes" issues involved the use of submarines. Originally, they wanted to charge the German Admirals with a war crime for sinking civilian vessels without warning. But that's how we strangled Japan, so our own admirals said that we couldn't charge the Germans without putting our own navy at risk.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-76019498614307198282014-01-22T14:54:56.435-05:002014-01-22T14:54:56.435-05:00Kit,
I think it was a discovery channel based mul...Kit,<br /><br />I think it was a discovery channel based multipart documentary from the BBC.<br /><br />Creepy, especially since you hear some of the same talk coming out of parts of Europe today.Koshcathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00552108950848576633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-51365731219706956952014-01-22T14:52:42.505-05:002014-01-22T14:52:42.505-05:00War crimes are also defined by the winners. Have ...War crimes are also defined by the winners. Have you seen the documentary "Fog of War"? In it McNamara discussed the firebombing of many Japanese cities. He was an analyst during the war and his group calculated that this was the most effective means to increase casualties. He stated that if we would have lost the war he and his team would have probably been charged with war crimes.<br /><br />War is bad and should always do our best to avoid it. Perhaps overly simplistic but if you start with this premise and finally decide to go to war, than you are more likely to do so with open eyes and a clear goal.Koshcathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00552108950848576633noreply@blogger.com