tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post782433588217476523..comments2024-03-05T21:05:36.848-05:00Comments on CommentaramaFilms: Politics of Trek: “Patterns of Force”AndrewPricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comBlogger65125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-27628467733050077932013-08-05T23:12:58.445-04:002013-08-05T23:12:58.445-04:00PikeBishop, I know. I think they made a huge mist...PikeBishop, I know. I think they made a huge mistake switching over. When they did that, they lost the feel of the place and so many of the regular commenters seemed to vanish. I don't know if they just couldn't figure out the new system or if they just decided it was time to leave, but that really marked a dramatic change in the Breitbart Empire.<br /><br />And then not only losing the comments, but it's nearly impossible now to access old articles over there, so everything they wrote that built the place all but vanished in one stroke. That was a real shame.<br />AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-17704713969704121392013-08-05T22:51:49.919-04:002013-08-05T22:51:49.919-04:00Andrew: Bored tonight and looking over old stuff....Andrew: Bored tonight and looking over old stuff. I first came across this post in the spring of 2011, when you cross posted it on Big Hollywood. We exchanged thoughts in the comments (I was Teacher in Tejas)and I enjoyed reading your ideas. And then I found Commentarama.<br /><br />I hate the fact that when the Breitbart Empire ditched "Intense Debate" for Discuss all those great comments on everything from Star Trek Nazis to the dental plan for Dr. Evil's henchmen just disappeared into the ether.<br /><br />Sigh!PikeBishophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05761380937971970762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-41453661757870130662012-05-27T22:45:35.447-04:002012-05-27T22:45:35.447-04:00By the way, Anony-moron,
I've got back news f...By the way, Anony-moron,<br /><br />I've got back news for you. I just declared the Tea Party as having international goals. That's right, Tea Party International. By your "logic," that makes us leftists. So now you need to support the Tea Party.<br /><br />So be a good little follower and get in line b*tch.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-82312623935869242932012-05-27T22:35:16.988-04:002012-05-27T22:35:16.988-04:00Anon-Moron,
I hate to break this to you, but I am...Anon-Moron,<br /><br />I hate to break this to you, but I am well versed in political science. I also have a brain, which you clearly do not. But that's kind of what one comes to expect from your side of the spectrum since your side hasn't really achieved anything except murdering hundreds of million of people.<br /><br />To clue you in, your argument is essentially this: "my professor told me the Nazis were right wingers, so it must be true." That marks you as a mouth-breathing fool and a mindless follower extraordinaire. Moreover, the distinction you use to try to hide your shame from your National Socialist and communist fellow travelers is laughable. You are essentially arguing that a sweater which is meant for export is not a true sweater because it's meant to be sold somewhere else. The reality is it's the substance of the form of government, i.e. the fundamental nature of the sweater, which matters. And you are idiot for believing your distinction matters.<br /><br />As an aside, your laughable use of the term selfish-individualism and your being upset at my rejection of group identity marks you as a good little Nazi and pretty much proves my point. Thanks fool.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-72009731172491665022012-05-27T21:51:07.161-04:002012-05-27T21:51:07.161-04:00Indi, It actually ended up in the spam filter (not...Indi, It actually ended up in the spam filter (not deleted). I just pulled it out. I haven't had a chance to read it to respond yet.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-20582300551225588922012-05-27T21:49:00.305-04:002012-05-27T21:49:00.305-04:00"Your commentary here is flawed due to your a..."Your commentary here is flawed due to your academic ignorance of political science. Nazism is considered a Rightwing ideology due to its emphasis on nationalism (it's "NATIONAL Socialism," not "INTERnational Socialism") and adherence to traditional order (there is no Communist "stateless utopia" in the Nazi agenda). Your focus on selfish individualism and near-rejection of any group identity keep you from understand the sociology at work in this field. You are typical of conservatives in that you talk about issues on which you are not educated, .."<br /><br />Anonymous whose post was deleted but the email was not... I have left out the ridiculous insults but will answer that section that at least pretends to have substance.<br /><br />Nazism is a form of Fascism which was first described by Musolini. It is an offshoot of socialism specifically syndicalism which states that workers should form a syndicate and own the means of production (the company). This has nothing to do with individualism and is definitely a form of communism. <br /><br />Fascim was the attempt to place this in the realm of government and instead of a workers syndicate the government itself would own the means of production i.e. the stock in compamies.<br /><br />This is the inherent and most important peice of fascism and is the 100% polar opposite of the principles of Individualism whether that is the rugged individualsim of the founding fathers, the philosophy of AQyn Rand or the pragmatic principles of capitalism of Adam <br />Smith.<br /><br />As to stateless communism, excuse me where is that in existense. Just because the communists pretended that they were international does not change the fact that China and Russia sought control of every communist state. So the internationalist meme you site does not exist in practice.<br /><br />As to the NAzi's NAtionalistic idenity. So what! America practiced NAtionalism in WW2, so did the French, the Japanese, the Italians, the British, the Canadians and every other country. Even the Soviet Union and China practiced Nationalism despite the lip service given to some international stateless fairy tale they never had any desire to enact.<br /><br />Fascism is probably the most intense form of collectivism there is. And how do you explain Barack Obama taking at gunpoint 60% of GM, 12% of Citigroup, 80% of AIG and those are only the ones made public. Sounds like this is FASCISM doesn't it. And when he distributed half the stock taken to Cronies who got the lion's share. The Unions. Sounds like Sindicalism to me.<br /><br />Note I have answered your questions without insult. IF I am so stupid and uniformed as you state then obviously there are facts I don't know and you can correct me on it. If you can manage to state them without insult so that Andrew does not have to delete the comment I am all ears... or is it eyes.. ThanksIndividualisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11005025873042230314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-5228124899160883262012-05-27T18:47:53.543-04:002012-05-27T18:47:53.543-04:00Your commentary here is flawed due to your academi...Your commentary here is flawed due to your academic ignorance of political science. Nazism is considered a Rightwing ideology due to its emphasis on nationalism (it's "NATIONAL Socialism," not "INTERnational Socialism") and adherence to traditional order (there is no Communist "stateless utopia" in the Nazi agenda). Your focus on selfish individualism and near-rejection of any group identity keep you from understand the sociology at work in this field. You are typical of conservatives in that you talk about issues on which you are not educated, instead of sticking to matter you do know--like tweeking out the Evinrude and plowing fields and working with Larry down on the lube rack. Try actually studying the matter before you go off like your Tea-brained cohorts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-23349083466199501952012-01-04T17:00:41.875-05:002012-01-04T17:00:41.875-05:00Sgt. York, I would eventually like to get to those...Sgt. York, I would eventually like to get to those, definitely. DS-9 was a very different show than TNG and had some really great conservative lessons.<br /><br />Thanks for commenting!AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-1299831520544368632012-01-04T16:42:35.600-05:002012-01-04T16:42:35.600-05:00Here's hoping this particular subject eventual...Here's hoping this particular subject eventually finds it's way to examining DS9, which was a veritable gold mine of conservative ideology.Sgt Yorknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-55554342092919263732011-11-13T11:15:19.940-05:002011-11-13T11:15:19.940-05:0098ZJUSMC, Isn't that the truth. We've got...98ZJUSMC, Isn't that the truth. We've got 200 years of power-grabs that have slowly corrupted a very beautiful structure. If we could reverse those, this country would be in great shape again!AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-89370879693905719362011-11-13T10:13:21.724-05:002011-11-13T10:13:21.724-05:00tryanmax said...
That is why we conservatives agr...<i> tryanmax said... <br />That is why we conservatives agree that the problem is not our Constitution, <b>but all the barnacles that have been attached to it. <br /><br />November 12, 2011 1:21 PM <br /></b></i><br /><br />An excellent way to put it.98ZJUSMChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00835592067007059336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-1756387718696286762011-11-12T22:26:48.067-05:002011-11-12T22:26:48.067-05:00Hi Indi! Welcome back! :)
Thanks!
You've put...Hi Indi! Welcome back! :)<br /><br />Thanks!<br /><br />You've put your finger right on a problem I see all the time with liberalism. Every time it fails, they blame the failure on "the wrong guy" trying to implement it. It never occurs to them that the policy itself if the problem. And that's the same thing with the benign dictator issue -- they believe that "if only the right guy with the right motives" were running things, it would all turn out ok. But that's just not true. It can never end well because the fundamental problem is the concentration of power itself. You just can't use force to control people and ever hope to get a good result.<br /><br />Sorry to hear about BH. Still, you're welcome to visit here! I've always enjoyed your view of things! :)AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-44852399337850628302011-11-12T22:08:17.289-05:002011-11-12T22:08:17.289-05:00Hi Andrew
Great synopsis. I remember the episod...Hi Andrew<br /><br />Great synopsis. I remember the episode but I was young and the political nuances went over my head at that time.<br /><br />I think you are spot on and seeing your analysis I think beyond what you have said it seems to be an allegory for liberalism. When you hear liberals argue it is always that whoever is in charge is "Evil" and that this other "Good" person should be running things. Never does it seem to be the case that whjatever it is does not require control to begin with.<br /><br />To answer your earlier question from a few posts back. No I never got my account at BH back... that I know of... truth is that after a month I quit checking altogether. At this point I just have not cared. Sorry to say. Part of it is that I have had so many other things going on right now.Individualisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11005025873042230314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-41257338196054027152011-11-12T19:36:24.114-05:002011-11-12T19:36:24.114-05:00Ben, you really broke it down to the root. Gratitu...Ben, you really broke it down to the root. Gratitude vs. Envy. <br /><br />It takes gratitude to appreciate that there are patterns of behavior which are beneficial and can be followed as opposed to there being no rhyme or reason. And it requires envy to believe that destructive behaviors should have the same rewards as beneficial behaviors. <br /><br />Thus, it is no surprise that the left chooses to embrace chaotic behavior, they want a chaotic world to justify their belief that the success of others and their own failings result from chance. <br /><br />The futility of their efforts is that the universe is ordered on a level they cannot touch.tryanmaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881154741574720094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-34836417638849979852011-11-12T18:39:31.382-05:002011-11-12T18:39:31.382-05:00Ben, The idea that we can eliminate private proper...Ben, The idea that we can eliminate private property is a long-time utopian dream for communists. They haven't thought it through.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-18145633031152371832011-11-12T17:46:46.383-05:002011-11-12T17:46:46.383-05:00Oops. Thanks for the correction Andrew.
Yes, they...Oops. Thanks for the correction Andrew.<br /><br />Yes, they did paint themselves into a corner with that stupid idea.<br /><br />There will always be private property of some sort, no matter how much the left wants to get rid of it (and most really don't when it comes down to it).USS Ben USN (Ret)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07492369604790651538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-16183137340631270022011-11-12T17:43:11.881-05:002011-11-12T17:43:11.881-05:00Ben, The "no money" thing came out in th...Ben, The "no money" thing came out in the Next Generation. They hadn't gone that far in the original series. And I'll bet they regretted going there because it made a lot of their episodes oddly confusing when they had to bribe people and couldn't explain what people were using as a means of exchange for valuable items.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-3162210648507094862011-11-12T17:30:38.520-05:002011-11-12T17:30:38.520-05:00Well said Andrew.
One of the glaring glitches in ...Well said Andrew.<br /><br />One of the glaring glitches in Star Trek is they say there's no money but there is credits which are basically debit cards from what I gather.<br /><br />So there is electronic money.USS Ben USN (Ret)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07492369604790651538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-66081307137990338292011-11-12T17:13:58.840-05:002011-11-12T17:13:58.840-05:00Ben, It is fascinating to see where the comments g...Ben, It is fascinating to see where the comments go around here. That's what I love about our audience though, is that they bring a lot of interesting thoughts to every discussion and we do get these really neat discussions where people are really contributing some interesting philosophical thoughts.<br /><br />On the sins, Christianity didn't pick those at random. As with the Greeks before them, and whoever else before the Greeks, it's been obvious for thousands of years what kinds of behaviors are constructive and what kinds are destructive. The problem with modern liberals is that they have rejected the past <i>in toto</i> and are trying to build a new world that laughs at the "primitives" in the past. That means they've taken on "sins" that they think they can harness. It also means they fundamentally misunderstand human nature and therefore, modern liberalism is deeply flawed and is always destined to fail.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-18873669742997940342011-11-12T16:45:08.365-05:002011-11-12T16:45:08.365-05:00Andrew: It is fascinating to me the direction the ...Andrew: It is fascinating to me the direction the comments go in. Lots of food for thought.<br /><br />I think there are timeless principles at work and they work in every aspect of reality.<br /><br />One of the biggest mistakes of leftism is that they cut themselves off from traditional wisdom.<br />Wisdom that took thousands of years to produce.<br /><br />Because they know better. But those who ignore the lessons of history are doomed to repeat the same errors over and over again.<br /><br />When one is disconnected from reality one is blind to reason and wisdom.<br />This is why their intellect, as such is so screwy. <br />They are deaf and blind and they want us to follow them.<br /><br />They are also driven by the deadly sins, primarily envy and greed which can never be sated and is an offshoot of pride (the bad kind).<br /><br />They don't respect property rights but they sure as hell don't wanna give theirs up.<br /><br />We all must struggle against the destructive power of envy, lust, greed, etc., and sometimes we fail.<br /><br />The main thing is to not get consumed by pride, envy, greed, etc.. and to realize how destructive it is.<br /><br />The Nazi's were definitely driven by deadly sins, and they ain't called deadly for nothin'.<br /><br />The class warfare...ENVY, that Obama and the democrats tell us we should feel is demonic and it's evil to attempt to control folks by encouraging them to give in to their hate of someone elses success or luck.<br /><br />There's never a call from the democrats to be grateful for what we have. <br />Being grateful builds ones character, but envy tears it down and if one is consumed by it they eventually become infrahuman. They lose their humanity.USS Ben USN (Ret)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07492369604790651538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-46171685569842441692011-11-12T13:30:18.482-05:002011-11-12T13:30:18.482-05:00tryanmax, Thanks. Good point about the "over-...tryanmax, Thanks. Good point about the "over-simplification of evil." I think that's what boogeyman basically are, a vast oversimplification which is then used as a stereotype to cast blame on a whole class of people.<br /><br />I think the point is a solid one about order v. chaos. I think what you have in totalitarian regimes is the imposition of the appearance of order through brutal force, often following the use of chaos to get people to clamor for order. But that order is fake order and breaks down quickly, causing chaos as it collapses. By comparison, a "natural order" doesn't really break down, it tends to slowly shift over time to a different equilibrium point.<br /><br />Look at the stock market as an example. If left alone, prices move around within a fairly small range as buyers and sellers make decision. But if the government (or some other enormous player) comes in and places a huge bet, then things start jumping. And when that bet becomes unsustainable, a crash occurs.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-11148643866586383982011-11-12T13:21:42.644-05:002011-11-12T13:21:42.644-05:00Andrew, nice list you compiled for Scott. A great ...Andrew, nice list you compiled for Scott. A great example of identifying evil just by the hats they wear. It's simplistic and only works with boogeymen. <br /><br />I think ElGordo nicely illustrated what I meant by courting chaos for the sake of order. The Nazis may have had a brief stint with organization, but they achieved that through murder and terror--chaotic means. The order was never genuine and it was destined to descend back into chaos.<br /><br />Similarly, the Bolsheviks are a prime example of using chaos to build an order. Conversely, our Constitution was designed to create order through order. That is why we conservatives agree that the problem is not our Constitution, but all the barnacles that have been attached to it.tryanmaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881154741574720094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-83348062142304427052011-11-12T12:40:20.809-05:002011-11-12T12:40:20.809-05:00El Gordo, Excellent point.
You are absolutely rig...El Gordo, Excellent point.<br /><br />You are absolutely right about the Nazis. The idea that they were efficient and somehow properly managed the country/economy except for their murders and the wars is entirely false. They, like the communists, made constant, repeated mistakes and did lots of economic damage. The only thing preventing that from being obvious was that they were propping up their economy by plundering other countries and they boosted their economy through the use of millions of people as slave labor. On those terms, it's very easy to make an economy appear to soar for a few years.<br /><br />So in that regard, you are correct that this episode does help perpetuate that myth because Spock of all people (who should know everything) agrees that they were so efficient.<br /><br />BUT that said, it doesn't offend me here for two reasons. First, I see this mainly as writing shorthand. The stereotype of the Nazis was "cruel but efficient" at that point and that was still being accepted by historians (the same historians who then still claimed that FDR ended the depression with his policies). So I don't hold it against a Hollywood writer that they wouldn't know to go against that grain at the time. Today I would demand more, but not in 1968.<br /><br />Secondly, I think it doesn't interfere with the overall point about totalitarian regimes being bad. In fact, it strengthens it because it says "even though you can get all kinds of benefits out of going this course, it will still end in disaster." I think that's actually a stronger message. Because if he'd said "well, they weren't that efficient and look what happened?" Then people would focus not on whether the benign dictator idea was wrong, but whether or not the Germans were really efficient and that would completely miss the point they were making.<br /><br />So while I agree with you, it doesn't offend me in this instance.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-34466006706661731752011-11-12T12:25:13.732-05:002011-11-12T12:25:13.732-05:00Floyd, Yep, that's why there's no nudity! ...Floyd, Yep, that's why there's no nudity! LOL! It is an odd thought that Carpenter inserted feminist ideas in his films, but they are there -- they just aren't obvious (hence, they never really strike you as being lectured to).<br /><br />On the movies listed, I concur -- they stunk. And it was the off-putting insertion of political ideas that made them stink.<br /><br />And I agree that hit movies are almost always conservative because they are premised on conservatives ideas and themes which resonate with audiences as "right/noble conduct" and "common sense." Liberalism, by comparison, is premised on ideas that run counter to human nature.<br /><br />I also agree that "conservative" does not mean "Protestant values." Conservatism is much broader concept and it deals with things religion doesn't really touch upon, e.g. economic matters. I prefer to say that conservatives values are "traditional values" (which includes religious values but also goes further -- it's the things the Greeks called "virtues") whereas liberal values tend to be counter-culture values. So things like being loyal to your friends, self-help, the nobility of individual achievement, supporting people as you allow them to succeed or fail on their own terms, etc. have become conservative values. And that resonates with people in their day to day lives.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-88643636632313838802011-11-12T10:41:47.577-05:002011-11-12T10:41:47.577-05:00It´s a good episode, but something sticks in my cr...It´s a good episode, but something sticks in my craw and that is the notion that the nazi regime was cruel but efficient. Nazi efficiency is just a cliche. The advances made in the first years were easy, given that the regime had inherited an industralized country with a well educated workforce and considerable resources (including a public administration of high quality) which it could now mobilize by decree. But their miracles were not sustainable. Let´s not forget that only a few years after Hitler came to power, he began a war that allow him to plunder the wealthiest countries of Europe. What is efficient about stealing? <br /><br />During the war, the German bureaucracy committed terrible blunders that kept war production far below its potential. Not efficient. <br /><br />Let´s not forget that a democratic Germany that found itself in far worse shape than in 1933 also managed an economic resurgence in the decades after the war.<br /><br />By not directly contradicting Gill, the episode still gives some credence to the idea that there is a tradeoff between efficiency and freedom. There isn´t. Even if there was such a thing as a benign dictator, he would eventually run everything into the ground.El Gordonoreply@blogger.com