tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post6076608108104297046..comments2024-03-05T21:05:36.848-05:00Comments on CommentaramaFilms: Politics of Trek: “The Conscience of the King”AndrewPricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comBlogger65125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-73906740474058404512012-04-02T22:02:40.908-04:002012-04-02T22:02:40.908-04:00Annabelle, Welcome!
You'd be surprised how ma...Annabelle, Welcome!<br /><br />You'd be surprised how many people actually don't fully grasp the differences. People know in a general sense that liberals favor big government and conservatives small government, but beyond that many get hazy. Stick with the series and we'll eventually walk through most of the differences between conservatism and liberalism and hopefully give everyone a framework for understanding all the nuances. :)<br /><br />In terms of liberals, I have to say that I am honestly getting to a point that I am finding it pointless to talk to liberals because they seem to have lost their ideology and are now just repeating nonsensical (and very angry) bumpersticker thoughts. That's too bad.<br /><br />In any event, feel free to ask any questions that come to mind.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-27615756253700836882012-04-02T21:41:15.648-04:002012-04-02T21:41:15.648-04:00I remember the original Star Trek airings-they sca...I remember the original Star Trek airings-they scared me but soon won me over. I haven't seen on in years.<br /><br />In that time I've struggled personally to portray the difference between liberalism and conservatism. With your article I learned I lacked a deeper understanding of both. <br /><br />As a deep conservative I've virtually become a hermit to avoid meeting the local liberals who infuriated me, cause a migraine, make me anxious, and wreck havoc with me. (Not just liberals but the local idiots too!)Annabelle Spencernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-25875947211329630462012-01-12T11:41:14.055-05:002012-01-12T11:41:14.055-05:00darski, That's an interesting take and I certa...darski, That's an interesting take and I certainly can't disagree. <i>Trek</i> has always been about the Federation being the good guys -- the shining example of how to live. And yet, by that point in DS-9, they had become the bad guys in many ways. The other bad guys (Dominion, Romulans, Borg) were clearly worse, but that didn't change the fact the Federation had become rather evil itself.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-53483907387797175842012-01-12T10:13:36.421-05:002012-01-12T10:13:36.421-05:00Interestingly, I found "In the Pale Moonligh...Interestingly, I found "In the Pale Moonlight" to be the most disturbing episode in all of Trek - to wit it marked the end of Trek as we know it. The good guys - us - had become just as evil as the evil.<br /><br />The entire point of Trek and its success was that humanity would move into a better place - there was hope and we should not give up the good fight. sisko said - screw the good I want to live.<br /><br />I found this TOS episode to be very powerful when it first aired. I grew up when the CBC would regularly show Shakespeare plays so the "set" was comfortable. I liked the larger than life aspect of Trek and all its people and villains. it seemed to me that the punishment did indeed fit the crime.darskinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-22903262499632189332012-01-11T21:50:27.219-05:002012-01-11T21:50:27.219-05:00rlaWTX and trynamax, Thanks! I love the community...rlaWTX and trynamax, Thanks! I love the community we've created. I think we have a lot of very smart people with interesting opinions and great senses of humor. I wouldn't trade our audience for any other. :)AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-31425296322317314372012-01-11T21:49:33.513-05:002012-01-11T21:49:33.513-05:00Thanks Ben! I think it's been fascinating to ...Thanks Ben! I think it's been fascinating to read everybody's comments and see what angles they have taken.<br /><br />I agree that it's nice not having to argue about whether truth exists or whether there is right and wrong. Why people believe that? I guess because it's easier to not worry about your own morality and that's easiest when you think there is no right and wrong.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-81318280662437520752012-01-11T20:43:24.809-05:002012-01-11T20:43:24.809-05:00rlaWTX, not only is Commentarama a safe place, it ...rlaWTX, not only is Commentarama a safe place, it is also a consistently smart place. Before I found it, I spend a lot of time at a centrist site that did a fair job of discussing most issues, but went absolutely brain-dead when it came to Israel or the notion that Keynes and Smith are incompatible. (O, the elusive dream of compromise!)tryanmaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881154741574720094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-92203207947381514132012-01-11T18:07:45.030-05:002012-01-11T18:07:45.030-05:00Ben, I keep my personal opinions quiet in grad sch...Ben, I keep my personal opinions quiet in grad school classes for that reason. [Nearly done!] Although in WTX there are more of the non-traditional students (AKA older)who lean my way.<br /><br />and I agree fully about Commentarama being a "safe space" where one can avoid most of the trolls and enjoy the conversation - I'm sure that we have enough differences of opinion among us to fulfill the modern diversity requirements!rlaWTXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09319344164726195144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-74870091215024880532012-01-11T17:40:23.453-05:002012-01-11T17:40:23.453-05:00Andrew: In that case I concur. Relatively speaking...Andrew: In that case I concur. Relatively speaking. :^)<br /><br />This series is a great idea! There was a lot of philosophy and even metaphysics to be had from Trek if one explores many of the themes and questions raised deeper.<br /><br />Another good thing as a result of having it here is we don't hafta waste time with debating whether or not right and wrong exists or if truth is absolutely relative or just relative with no possibility of absolute truth (absolute truth must be if there is to be any truth at all).<br /><br />It's difficult to see why some folks forgo reason and logic but apparently it is appealing to them.<br />Perhaps due to the illusion of a reality they can micromanage. <br />Maybe that's conforting somehow. <br /><br />I dunno. I guess I can't deny that they feel good about their denial of reality. I just can't relate.USS Ben USN (Ret)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07492369604790651538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-91698069413518805542012-01-11T17:26:05.965-05:002012-01-11T17:26:05.965-05:00rlaWTX:
No doubt the majority of Psych professors ...rlaWTX:<br />No doubt the majority of Psych professors consider anyone with my views insane, lol.USS Ben USN (Ret)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07492369604790651538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-23535270783164230392012-01-11T17:16:28.258-05:002012-01-11T17:16:28.258-05:00Ben, I should probably clarify that. FDR was only...Ben, I should probably clarify that. FDR was only a classical liberal by comparison to modern liberals. He was, as you note, an early progressive.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-84316223535979836852012-01-11T17:15:51.403-05:002012-01-11T17:15:51.403-05:00Another part of the collectivist thinking problem ...Another part of the collectivist thinking problem is that, while I do believe in such a thing as a collective mind, it cannot be accessed individually. Adam Smith called this the Invisible Hand. In other words, the collective will make the best decisions even if the individual does not--but only if the individuals are left to make decisions. Since we are all individuals, none of us is equipped to think for the collective because none of us can think <i>like</i> a collective. Bringing it back to <i>Trek</i> the genius and the horror of the Borg is that it does consciously think like a collective and that is wholly foreign to our existence.tryanmaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881154741574720094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-40746465453628111752012-01-11T17:15:45.857-05:002012-01-11T17:15:45.857-05:00rlaWTX, I think it's fascinating the kinds of ...rlaWTX, I think it's fascinating the kinds of discussions people get into out of a quality show like this. That's one reason I wanted to do the series, to give people a chance to think in bigger terms than just the news of the day and to ponder what conservatism really is and how it fits with their beliefs (or doesn't).AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-26324969715276545192012-01-11T17:09:03.272-05:002012-01-11T17:09:03.272-05:00Ben, if you take any Psych class, they will tell y...Ben, if you take any Psych class, they will tell you that the collectivists are better - more caring, more stable, less individualistic, etc... - and that you must appreciate their culture.<br /><br />pshaw.rlaWTXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09319344164726195144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-16849887061308733752012-01-11T16:50:18.659-05:002012-01-11T16:50:18.659-05:00Speaking of the collective-minded, they always mak...Speaking of the collective-minded, they always make simple(minded) statements that everything is finite, ergo, insert apocalypse based on overpopulation, lack of resources, lack of food, global warming/cooling, etc., etc..<br /><br />Most of that is so shortsided and not based on science.<br /><br />For instance, food production is not a problem today (although it doesn't always make it to people that need it in third world countries but that's not due to a lack of food).<br /><br />Peak oil is now a debunkable myth, particularly since there are new ways to get it (shale). <br /><br />World population is stable and never met the dire predictions of the past, weather has short and long term patterns, we can recycle a lot of what we use, etc., etc..<br /><br />And yet, many collectivists still believe a lot of this BS.<br />They still don't realize that although they are static not everyone else is.<br /><br />Innovations are always being made and new resources are being discovered all the time.<br /><br />Collectivists never take into account even the known variables, let alone the unknown ones so it's no wonder they are always in the full on apocalypse now mode.USS Ben USN (Ret)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07492369604790651538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-67474765100948916522012-01-11T16:49:25.463-05:002012-01-11T16:49:25.463-05:00it's kind of amazing the conversation that com...it's kind of amazing the conversation that comes out of a TV show... the fact that it's a great show probably helps.rlaWTXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09319344164726195144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-3047205717983545202012-01-11T16:35:22.872-05:002012-01-11T16:35:22.872-05:00Andrew: I disagree that FDR was a classical libera...Andrew: I disagree that FDR was a classical liberal, at least not in the same sense our Founding Fathers were.<br /><br />FDR was more pro(re)gressive which started with Teddy but FDR took it to a much higher level.<br /><br />That being said FDR was still much more conservative than the modern day leftists.USS Ben USN (Ret)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07492369604790651538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-54713508647820218632012-01-11T15:22:04.070-05:002012-01-11T15:22:04.070-05:00Tyranmax
That point is brilliant and I completely...Tyranmax<br /><br />That point is brilliant and I completely missed it.<br /><br />I think you might be right. The Individual has as there primary motivation the survival of each individual. Wars are the worst part of an economic struggle. You avoid them by finding ways to produce more.<br /><br />The collectivist has as his primary motivation the survival of the collective. Wars are a breaking apart of teh collective. Even if one side wins there will be a break in unity. Thus they want to solve the economic problem with macheiaveelian solutions such as population control.Individualisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11005025873042230314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-10854828727369628572012-01-11T14:36:41.223-05:002012-01-11T14:36:41.223-05:00Thanks Ben! Feel free to comment at your leisure....Thanks Ben! Feel free to comment at your leisure.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-50623830154591025172012-01-11T14:36:14.751-05:002012-01-11T14:36:14.751-05:00tryanmax, That's an interesting distinction th...tryanmax, That's an interesting distinction that a country/collective and an individual have different concerns when it comes to evil. That may explain a good deal of the disconnect between government policy and individual preference.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-1373386574018305082012-01-11T14:23:23.868-05:002012-01-11T14:23:23.868-05:00Excellent post, Andrew!
Also, good points, Joel a...Excellent post, Andrew!<br /><br />Also, good points, Joel and Indi! <br /><br />Still reading the comments so I'll probably have more later.USS Ben USN (Ret)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07492369604790651538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-25673661507333844812012-01-11T13:00:20.641-05:002012-01-11T13:00:20.641-05:00Indie, though not the crux of your last comment, t...Indie, though not the crux of your last comment, there is an interesting point raised in it. That is, that the individual and the collective have very different responses to evil. In the case of the individual, all evils are closer to equal footing because any injury is perceived by the whole. But the same is not true of the collective. Parts of the collective are absolutely numb to other parts, so evils become more categorical, even to the point of allowing self-immolation. <br /><br />War provides a particularly stark example because that is about the only thing which can threaten collective as a whole (widespread natural disaster being the only other coming to mind). Meanwhile, many things threaten the individual in ways similar to war. This explains the higher tolerance for war among individualists than collectivists. To the individual, it merely represents a different manifestation of an otherwise familiar risk. To the collective, it is a more unique threat.tryanmaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881154741574720094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-59148200582064363212012-01-11T12:43:49.281-05:002012-01-11T12:43:49.281-05:00Indi, Sorry to hear about the loss of value of you...Indi, Sorry to hear about the loss of value of your two cents! :(<br /><br />I think you're right that there would be a difference between his just abandoning the 4,000 and executing them. This goes back to an old question in philosophy about the difference between omission and comission, i.e. are you at fault for not stopping bad things as well as for causing bad things.<br /><br />That issue isn't decided and has been at the forefront of much debate. In general, I think most people accept that you can't generally be blamed for failing to act, but they also see many exceptions based on proximity, ability and the severity of the consequences.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-21406694932067811612012-01-11T12:29:00.512-05:002012-01-11T12:29:00.512-05:00tryanmax, I'm just talking in the broadest sen...tryanmax, I'm just talking in the broadest sense of "what conscious act you set out to do" because that is what questions of morality are usually based upon.<br /><br />And in that regard, self-defense doesn't generally fit in the category because it's usually only an unthinking reaction to someone who is acting well outside the bounds of morality themselves. (At least that's the case until liberals get a hold of it. That's when ideas like pre-emptive self defense rear their heads and cause all kinds of havoc.)<br /><br />But you make a good point that this single line packs a heck of a punch -- which is usually true with these little nuggets that have stood the test of time.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-40950510571056239282012-01-11T10:02:24.354-05:002012-01-11T10:02:24.354-05:00I think we need to have an understanding that ther...I think we need to have an understanding that there is a difference between Kodos selecting four of the eight thousand colonists to survive by only giving them rations and outright exterminating 4000 people.<br /><br />I guess I keep going back to that article I read and the pro abortion arguments that are reflected in our society because I think this is a key point of liberalism.<br /><br />That being that the collective is the only thing that is important. Individuals matter but only to the extent that they promote society at large.<br /><br />Picard as written by the mordern leftists in TNG would have gone along with forgiving KODOS. Why? Because KODOS did what was right for the collective.<br /><br />We all know we should not murder and that we should protect life. We educate our children, build roads and infrastructure and teach morality to ensure there are the resources and ordered processwes in place to support the next generation and to grow.<br /><br />Liberals understand that when societies run into scarcities that there is a potential for war. so do conservatives. Conservatives feel that people should go along with what they have do the best they can, fight the war if they have no other choice but try to live free and do what is best for each individual.<br /><br />Libberals don't think this way. If there is a war the collective as a whole is in peril and it must be stopped. Thus they want one world governments and centralized control. So what happens when there is a scarcity of resources. Well the collective has to systematically perform the fucntion of culling the herd that would have organically occured with a ware or famine. They kill members of the population.<br /><br />The presumption in the science fiction story is that the earth is allowed 5 million people no more so naturally the controlling one world government has to euthanize the 5 million and first.<br /><br />The presumption of the abortion argument is that society cannot afford to have children born to unwed mothers that cannot take care of them. So let's convince those in that situation that killing the unborn child is not just a viable option but maybe the best choice.<br /><br />If the collective matters you make the choice to kill the unwanted that you cannot support. If the individual matters you do your best to protect people but require people to support themselves as well.<br /><br />I have read stories by way out there liberal scifi authors where the KODOS solution is appluded. Oddly enough they tend to be the lightest in the science portion of the science fiction.<br /><br />Just my two cents, now worth $0098 after Obamacare.Individualisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11005025873042230314noreply@blogger.com