tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post5354322216219425256..comments2024-03-05T21:05:36.848-05:00Comments on CommentaramaFilms: How To Un-Cliché Your VillainAndrewPricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-38786496813543837562010-08-13T09:21:09.837-04:002010-08-13T09:21:09.837-04:00Andrew,For some reason, this article reminds me of...Andrew,<br><br>For some reason, this article reminds me of Robespierre and his reign of terror. He was killed by his own people after he brought to the Committee for Public Safety a sheaf of paper calling for a new purge but neglected to tell them the names on it. Fearing for their safety, the committee members called for Robespierre's head. He was arrested and executed.Joel Farnhamhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15856960977033430002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-20429559174119386952010-08-13T09:59:22.289-04:002010-08-13T09:59:22.289-04:00That's no Torchwood bureaucrat, that's Mal...That's no <i>Torchwood</i> bureaucrat, that's Malcolm Tucker! (When you see <i>In the Loop</i>, you'll understand.) :-D<br><br>And by coincidence, this <a href="http://www.empireonline.com/features/drugs-cia-hollywoods-bad-guy-dilemma/" rel="nofollow">article</a> from Empire Magazine showed up in my Facebook feed and it's all about Hollywood bad guys.<br><br>A perfect example of a scientist who thinks he's doing something great but it backfires... would be John Noble in <i>Fringe</i>. To say anything more would be a spoiler. And before you mentioned it, I kept thinking of <i>Brazil</i>, specifically Michael Palin's character. He's just a bureaucrat with a family to feed.<br><br>Unfortunately (as you'll read in the above article though I'm sure you'll disagree with its conclusions), there are certain bad guys that simply make better <i>cinematic</i> villains. Nazis have everything... the architecture, the music, the cool uniforms, the artwork, the marches, etc. CEOs have the coolest technology and weapons, not to mention an endless supply of henchmen. <br><br>What does a terrorist have? A suitcase, a Kalashnikov, and a bomb in his pants. :-) I'm grossly simplifying this but, as I've said before, a good writer can craft a great story with any villain but some take more effort than others. And some motivations lend themselves better to films than others. Greed, yes. Sloth, not so much.ScottDShttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15660889617173576835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-53459162630592623552010-08-13T10:15:33.389-04:002010-08-13T10:15:33.389-04:00Aww, man, my comment seems to have disappeared (or...Aww, man, my comment seems to have disappeared (or I absent-mindedly closed the tab in my browser). Let's try it again...<br><br>That's no Torchwood bureaucrat, that's Malcolm Tucker! (When you see In the Loop, you'll understand.) :-)<br><br>A great example of a scientist who thinks he's doing something good but it turns out badly would be John Noble's character on Fringe... to say anything more would be a spoiler. And the whole article, I kept thinking of Brazil... Michael Palin's character is just a man doing his job. He has a family to feed just like everybody else.<br><br>By coincidence, this <a href="http://www.empireonline.com/features/drugs-cia-hollywoods-bad-guy-dilemma/" rel="nofollow">article</a> appeared in my Facebook feed. It's very interesting though I think you'll disagree with some its conclusions. <br><br>I think part of the problem is that certain villains and motivations simply make for better <i>cinematic</i> experiences. The Nazis, businessmen... they have cool toys, endless henchmen, etc. But I've said this before, a great writer can craft a story with any villain. Some just take more effort than others.ScottDShttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15660889617173576835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-23200491451355590252010-08-13T10:36:26.524-04:002010-08-13T10:36:26.524-04:00I've been having a hard time posting this morn...I've been having a hard time posting this morning. I logged out of Blogger and back in so away we go (for the third time).<br><br>That's no Torchwood bureaucrat, that's Malcolm Tucker! (When you see In the Loop, you'll understand.) :-)<br><br>By coincidence, this <a href="http://www.empireonline.com/features/drugs-cia-hollywoods-bad-guy-dilemma/" rel="nofollow">article</a> showed up in my Facebook feed though I doubt you'll agree with all its conclusions.<br><br>I think part of the problem is that certain villains and motivations simply make for better <i>cinematic</i> experiences. Greed, yes. Sloth, not so much. I've said it before but a great writer can craft a story with any villain. It's just that certain villains require a little more work than others. <br><br>(I had more but I don't want to type it all a third time!)ScottDShttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15660889617173576835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-14055045405975984422010-08-13T10:47:36.254-04:002010-08-13T10:47:36.254-04:00Thanks Joel, I'll watch my back! LOL!Thanks Joel, I'll watch my back! LOL!AndrewPricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-53198594483587873902010-08-13T10:49:08.053-04:002010-08-13T10:49:08.053-04:00Andrew,ScottDS has been trying to post here this m...Andrew,<br><br>ScottDS has been trying to post here this morning. So far, it hasn't made it.<br><br>I'll post his comment next.Joel Farnhamhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15856960977033430002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-51226671776198124522010-08-13T10:50:10.858-04:002010-08-13T10:50:10.858-04:00That's no Torchwood bureaucrat, that's Mal...That's no Torchwood bureaucrat, that's Malcolm Tucker! (When you see In the Loop, you'll understand.) :-D<br><br>And by coincidence, this article from Empire Magazine showed up in my Facebook feed and it's all about Hollywood bad guys.<br><br>A perfect example of a scientist who thinks he's doing something great but it backfires... would be John Noble in Fringe. To say anything more would be a spoiler. And before you mentioned it, I kept thinking of Brazil, specifically Michael Palin's character. He's just a bureaucrat with a family to feed.<br><br>Unfortunately (as you'll read in the above article though I'm sure you'll disagree with its conclusions), there are certain bad guys that simply make better cinematic villains. Nazis have everything... the architecture, the music, the cool uniforms, the artwork, the marches, etc. CEOs have the coolest technology and weapons, not to mention an endless supply of henchmen. <br><br>What does a terrorist have? A suitcase, a Kalashnikov, and a bomb in his pants. :-) I'm grossly simplifying this but, as I've said before, a good writer can craft a great story with any villain but some take more effort than others. And some motivations lend themselves better to films than others. Greed, yes. Sloth, not so much. <br><br>Sent by ScottDSJoel Farnhamhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15856960977033430002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-61813890321445477992010-08-13T10:51:25.250-04:002010-08-13T10:51:25.250-04:00Thanks, Joel! I'm still trying to figure it ou...Thanks, Joel! I'm still trying to figure it out. I assume the problem is on my end. Stay tuned...ScottDSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-72540555184210224852010-08-13T10:52:33.488-04:002010-08-13T10:52:33.488-04:00Oh, and here's the link to the article I was m...Oh, and here's the link to the article I was mentioning...<br><br><a href="http://www.empireonline.com/features/drugs-cia-hollywoods-bad-guy-dilemma/" rel="nofollow">Click here.</a>ScottDSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-20635357821171625412010-08-13T10:57:46.268-04:002010-08-13T10:57:46.268-04:00Scott, I'm not sure what the problem is. Let ...Scott, I'm not sure what the problem is. Let me know if it doesn't fix itself. It could be Google -- which is much more finicky than it should be.AndrewPricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-77130920675706564872010-08-13T11:19:49.240-04:002010-08-13T11:19:49.240-04:00Scott, Regarding Brazil, I think the whole thing i...Scott, Regarding <i>Brazil</i>, I think the whole thing is crawling with examples from my article above. Palin is the most extreme version of the bureaucrat who knows that what he's doing is wrong, but keeps on doing it -- most of the "bad bureaucrats" usually aren't doing something as direct as torturing people. In any event, think about Jonathan Price's character too, who basically turns this woman into public enemy number one because he decides that he's going to save her from imagined danger.<br><br>As for the point about terrorists v. Nazis, yes, it's a lot easier to make a story about Nazis or CEOs because all those cool toys and well-worn conventions are a crutch -- these movies basically write themselves. But because of this, the fascist-cliché stories are very limiting because they always need to be grandiose and are always about how to bring down the Hitler-character at the top.<br><br>To explain the difference, let’s look at something in a slightly different context. Compare <i>Ronin</i>, which puts the spy story back into a much more intimate context, against any of the modern James Bond films, which are all flash, explosions and one-liners. <i>Ronin</i> is where the real story telling is because it has to rely on interesting stories, compelling characters and intense action. The Bond movies can’t get to that level because they need to deliver too much flash. Movies that rely on the "fascism cliché" usually fall right into the all-flash category.<br><br>Also, we're looking for non-cliché villains here, not cliché villains. If we wanted a list of cliché villains, the Nazis and their offshoots would be at the top of the list.<br><br>I will see <i>In The Loop</i>, I literally just haven't had the chance to watch anything new lately. If he's half as good in that as he was in <i>Torchwood</i>, then I'll be impressed.<br><br>(I'll check out the article and get back to you.)AndrewPricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-3675047582346330702010-08-13T11:27:00.766-04:002010-08-13T11:27:00.766-04:00for the current situation.. I look to another famo...for the current situation.. I look to another famous Trek villain. Khan was doing what he did because his natural superiority made it <b>necessary</b> for him to determine the lives of others. He has always been my most chilling villain and was fully believable.darskinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-10493678284676074222010-08-13T11:39:20.223-04:002010-08-13T11:39:20.223-04:00darksi, I like Khan a lot, but I would draw a dist...darksi, I like Khan a lot, but I would draw a distinction between Khan in the series and Khan in the film. Khan in the series was exactly like you say. A very believable character who had literally been genetically engineered to see himself as a superior human who needs to lead all the rest -- basically, he was the genetic version of Hitler's "Aryan superman" (even though he was Indian).<br><br>In the film, he was a little more Hollywood cliche -- angry to the point of being irrational, prone to outbursts and (nearly) senselessly violent. . . which he wasn't in the series. In the series, he saw violence as just another tool to use to achieve his goals, i.e. he was cold-blooded (and that was very chilling).<br><br>I think that made the movie character much closer to a cliche, though I did enjoy the film and his portrayal a lot.AndrewPricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-86961701673046173522010-08-13T12:45:25.379-04:002010-08-13T12:45:25.379-04:00John Travolta revived his career playing cliched v...John Travolta revived his career playing cliched villains. Without the surrounding cast and the difference in plot, it's almost impossible to distinguish one Travolta villain from another. I will give him credit for being at least a little different in <i>Taking of Pelham 1-2-3</i>. But the smirking, cold-blooded villain who is so smart that he outsmarts himself has become his forte.LawHawkRFDhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-25267359541332252942010-08-13T12:51:15.883-04:002010-08-13T12:51:15.883-04:00Lawhawk, Isn't that the truth. I would say th...Lawhawk, Isn't that the truth. I would say that his character in Pulp Fiction was different, but everything else he's done has been completely interchangeable with each of his other roles.AndrewPricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-3705123761856475812010-08-13T13:05:05.330-04:002010-08-13T13:05:05.330-04:00yes, but what of *my* melodramatic traits?! i just...yes, but what of *my* melodramatic traits?! i just can't see writing wonk 5 days a week without them.<br><br>~ maniacal laugh here ~Pattihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15388997298014397980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-60139068436558814652010-08-13T13:10:51.974-04:002010-08-13T13:10:51.974-04:00Patti, All personal melodrama is of course allowed...Patti, All personal melodrama is of course allowed! :-)AndrewPricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-73312733786455168722010-08-13T13:21:07.837-04:002010-08-13T13:21:07.837-04:00Scott, I read the article. I'm feeling pretty ...Scott, I read the article. I'm feeling pretty indifferent about it.<br><br>It's a very cynical article that is also much shallower than the author thinks it is. Indeed, all it really does is present the liberal Hollywood view of why Hollywood chooses the villains it chooses for blockbuster films -- lazy writers, a stupid public, and trying to avoid inciting racism in the stupid public.<br><br>But the author tries to sound above all of that by tossing in a lot of sarcasm. But since there's no real depth behind the sarcasm, you're just left with a cynical article that says almost nothing.<br><br>I also think she's wrong about there being a trend toward sympathetic Nazis, she's wrong in her timeline about the IRA movies and about the IRA ever replacing anyone as America's "go-to" villain, and she's almost entirely wrong about why Hollywood ignores Muslims. She also doesn't seem to get that villains are dictated largely by current events.AndrewPricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-29963175532370465092010-08-13T13:27:23.216-04:002010-08-13T13:27:23.216-04:00Scott, I'm going to wipe out your test comment...Scott, I'm going to wipe out your test comments now that it looks like the problem is solved.AndrewPricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-18641178972575319842010-08-13T15:54:45.092-04:002010-08-13T15:54:45.092-04:00One of the most painful things to watch, is when a...One of the most painful things to watch, is when a character becomes a cliché of themselves, like Lawhawk mentioned with Travolta. Sylvester Stallone in Rocky, Rambo, etc. Hell! …Hollywood itself is a cliché’ of it’s once rich grandeur. Original thought are sorely lacking in an industry whose very survival depends on it. However, to be fair originality is a rare commodity indeed in all of mankind’s history, to dig down to the nexus of any art, is next to impossible. Even Shakespeare had predecessors and critics, he simply took an existing art form and made it his own, you could say the same of Mozart or Leonardo Da Vinci, and on and on. The trick is, to make what has come before you, your own, without being cliché’.StanHhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07395708786509590321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-34453658897923745892010-08-13T16:02:16.576-04:002010-08-13T16:02:16.576-04:00Stan, I couldn't have said it better -- the tr...Stan, I couldn't have said it better -- the trick is to "make it your own."<br><br>At some level, everything is a repeat of something that came before it. But the difference between good and bad work is that the good stuff manages to find fresh angles that people aren't already familiar with, i.e. to at least make it seem new and original, even if it isn't.<br><br>And I agree with you about characters/actors becoming cliches of themselves. That's a danger with a lot of the guys who just play the one personality on screen -- like Stalone or Arnold. And the danger is that they end up doing that one movie too many that suddenly makes everything they've done before seems "less" than it used to.AndrewPricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-80620813956590798502010-08-13T16:35:35.694-04:002010-08-13T16:35:35.694-04:00Thanks, Andrew. I'm out now but I'm sure I...Thanks, Andrew. I'm out now but I'm sure I'll have more to say on the subject later. :-)ScottDShttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15660889617173576835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-5114966671832539512010-08-16T02:55:37.681-04:002010-08-16T02:55:37.681-04:00AndrewThe incompetent bureaucrats who made the bes...Andrew<br><br>The incompetent bureaucrats who made the best villians would have to be the Vogons in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy... Kidding but they did blow up the earth for a hyperspatial bypass that did not need to be made.<br><br>Hey how about this for a villian...<br>A community organizer who uses government give away programs to place people in homes with mortgages at 125% the home's value who works with a lawyer and a rich real estate investor who buys up these houses cheap when the individuals default on their loans and then uses the political proceeds to run for Office.......<br><br>Wait I think that was has been done before too... Hmmmm......Individualisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11005025873042230314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-32199986123825379732010-08-16T11:13:48.602-04:002010-08-16T11:13:48.602-04:00Individualist, Yeah, that's been done to death...Individualist, Yeah, that's been done to death. . . death of our economy!<br><br>I hadn't thought about the Vogon, but that is kind of funny. "The plans have been on file for months, we can't help it if you don't pay attention to local issues." LOL!AndrewPricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.com