tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post3077329296298563259..comments2024-03-05T21:05:36.848-05:00Comments on CommentaramaFilms: Why Superhero Films Are FailingAndrewPricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-28100716243650850492011-09-03T14:54:30.589-04:002011-09-03T14:54:30.589-04:00Koshcat, I think CGI and the way they've thinn...Koshcat, I think CGI and the way they've thinned out the heroes into generic personalities is definitely part of this as well. In fact, I think CGI is a huge problem for Hollywood, but they seem addicted to it.<br /><br />And you're right that sometimes backstory works and sometimes it doesn't. I think the key is to either do the backstory as the whole story, or only provide the parts that are needed for the story. But right now, Hollywood typically tries to mix the backstory in with some other plot and it just ends up a mess.<br /><br />Yeah, some of the comments were way out there. There was a good deal of anger at minutia and a lot of people who just don't "get" how the world works. Several, for example, kept saying "it made a lot of money" and just would not understand that it isn't how much the film makes that matters, it's how much it makes COMPARED to what it cost that matters. And several were determined to prove to me that their favorite obscure comic book is worshiped by the public at large.<br /><br />The doublevision guy was just determined to prove that he's smarter than everyone else, but nothing he said made any sense and he kept mischaracterizing my argument and then arguing against his own interpretation rather than against what I actually said. He was also very good at elevating his opinion to fact. That's not much you can say to people like that.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-86892039433611309642011-09-03T01:57:43.116-04:002011-09-03T01:57:43.116-04:00Liked the article but some of the comments...let&#...Liked the article but some of the comments...let's just say it gave me double vision. <br /><br />Personally, I think CGI has harmed this genre the most primarily as you pointed out that it lends to lazy story telling. Sometime a backstory works and is needed and sometimes it doesn't. Ironman it worked. Batman Begins sort of. The original Superman it does. But it works here because it provided depth to the character. Kickass is interesting because we get an extensive backstory on kickass himself but only a short one on Hitgirl and the villain. The first Batman didn't have much of a backstory. In the Dark Night, we got no backstory on the Joker and that to me just made his character that much more disturbing. <br /><br />I think the other problem is often they make the superhero into a wuss. " Do I save the world or the little boy with the lost puppy?" ugh. Here, I'll shoot the boy so you can focus on destroying that comet coming at us.Koshcatnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-12797644869632769012011-09-02T17:21:08.856-04:002011-09-02T17:21:08.856-04:00tryanmax, That's ok, I am familiar with their ...tryanmax, That's ok, I am familiar with their work.... the <i>Toxic Avenger</i> in particular.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-88017774962694429142011-09-02T17:19:17.254-04:002011-09-02T17:19:17.254-04:00I just want to repeat the one word that says every...I just want to repeat the one word that says everything: <br /><br />"TROMA" <br /><br />That is all.tryanmaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881154741574720094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-44889240704811872502011-09-02T17:18:36.017-04:002011-09-02T17:18:36.017-04:00By the way, for people still upset at the use of t...By the way, for people still upset at the use of the word failure, let me point this out. There is another recent article that talks about <i>Prince of Persia</i> and how its worldwide box office of $335 million "isn't too shabby."<br /><br />But it is.<br /><br />The film cost $200 million to make. It cost another $100 million to market worldwide.<br /><br />That means they risked $300 million to earn $35 million in profits. That's just over 10%. That's not good enough, especially since that 10% will be split between multiple investors and producers.<br /><br />So while the raw number sounds great, it's actually a failure as a film.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-37539037511377817372011-09-02T16:51:24.670-04:002011-09-02T16:51:24.670-04:00Outlaw, I never saw it. But I've added it to ...Outlaw, I never saw it. But I've added it to my list of films to see as I am curious about it. I don't mind dark, in fact I've seen several films that I didn't "like" but which impressed me. And I'm always looking for something off the beaten path.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-36713989521226400522011-09-02T16:29:41.987-04:002011-09-02T16:29:41.987-04:00I saw Super and I think "dark" would be ...I saw Super and I think "dark" would be a good way to describe it. If you have a twisted sence of humor you'll like it. there are parts of it that I tought were well done but it was soooo strnage it would be difficult to say that I "liked" it. It was interesting.Outlaw13https://www.blogger.com/profile/17232117096525959967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-46929242877870772112011-09-02T13:23:29.669-04:002011-09-02T13:23:29.669-04:00tryanmax, Other than Rogen, I have generally enjoy...tryanmax, Other than Rogen, I have generally enjoyed the subgenre... though I have to admit I've never heard it being called "slaction heroes." LOL! Nice!AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-53408331818055879922011-09-02T13:09:39.787-04:002011-09-02T13:09:39.787-04:00No defense from me. Rogan's Green Hornet is th...No defense from me. Rogan's Green Hornet is the least redeemable slaction hero to date.tryanmaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881154741574720094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-40977656977805369262011-09-02T13:02:28.520-04:002011-09-02T13:02:28.520-04:00tryanmax, I definitely see that as the charm in th...tryanmax, I definitely see that as the charm in these films. What bothered me about Rogen's performance though was that he was picking on people who couldn't defend themselves -- employees. It just rubbed me as abusive and really wrong.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-16565796624284600672011-09-02T12:57:05.580-04:002011-09-02T12:57:05.580-04:00Oh, I agree that Green Hornet was mediocre at best...Oh, I agree that <i>Green Hornet</i> was mediocre at best. Seth Rogan was an unbearable ass! But that is part of the charm of slaction, IMO: marginally likable protagonists in the hero role who accomplish more than they deserve to.tryanmaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881154741574720094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-50114156227969485452011-09-02T12:28:03.163-04:002011-09-02T12:28:03.163-04:00P.S. I actually did enjoy Hulk 2008. I thought i...P.S. I actually did enjoy <i>Hulk</i> 2008. I thought it was good, not great, but good. Though I wonder if it wouldn't make more sense to make the story "smaller" in the future -- in the sense of making the plot less grandiose and more personal?<br /><br />Thanks for dropping by!AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-82506414658739670612011-09-02T12:25:20.287-04:002011-09-02T12:25:20.287-04:00tryanmax, Welcome! I can understand not wanting t...tryanmax, Welcome! I can understand not wanting to get lost. It gets really hard to keep up with everything over at BH when the numbers get that high.<br /><br />"I crave validation" -- LOL!<br /><br />I agree with your points. I think the biggest problem is that Hollywood doesn't respect its audience. It thinks we need to be fed these linear stories that include every little detail that could possibly be relevant. It reminds me of how they write children's stories. Hollywood needs to start seeing audiences as more adult and give us more credit than that.<br /><br />And oddly, I think the evidence is there for them to see that. The films that have blown the box office away (like <i>Dark Knight</i>) have rejected this silly formula and really given the audience a true film... rather than a child's story. But for some reason, Hollywood won't see the obvious.<br /><br />I thought <i>Kick Ass</i> was great. It was funny and had a lot of heart. I've actually reviewed/discussed it (<a href="http://commentaramafilms.blogspot.com/2011/04/film-friday-kick-ass-2010.html" rel="nofollow">HERE</a>) if you're interested.<br /><br />I did not like <i>Green Hornet</i> at all, but I did enjoy <i>Zombieland</i>. I also liked <i>The Shadow</i> quite a bit as well.<br /><br />I have not heard of <i>Super</i>, but I'll look for it. It sounds interesting and I'm always up for something original!AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-84011389597168223732011-09-02T12:09:16.104-04:002011-09-02T12:09:16.104-04:00Oh, I also wanted to say that I thought The Incred...Oh, I also wanted to say that I thought The Incredible Hulk 2008 did an excellent job of blending storyline and exposition. Unfortunately, it didn't deliver on the action scenes like a superhero movie should. It felt more like a monster flick at the end, which I guess it essentially was, but... *shrugs*tryanmaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881154741574720094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-13794283309595415512011-09-02T12:02:14.780-04:002011-09-02T12:02:14.780-04:00I didn't want to get lost among 399 comments a...I didn't want to get lost among 399 comments and counting on BH, so I popped over here. What can I say? I crave validation.<br /><br />I'm not sure if I have a favorite super-hero movie, but I am a fan of the genre. I've never turned the cover of a hero comic in my life, so I always go into these things blind. As such, I have to wholeheartedly agree that the heavy-handed exposition of an origin story is largely unnecessary. <br /><br />Hollywood doesn't seem to give their audiences much credit. We are far more capable of resolving ambiguity than they think. A bit of well-crafted dialogue goes a long way. Flashbacks don't need to last more than a couple minute. If back story is essential to the character, reveal it along with the narrative. It's "cinema"! Time is a paint on the palette; not everything has to be linear.<br /><br />Regarding good superhero films, I'm going to join the consensus on Batman 1989. <br /><br />I'm going to offer up The Shadow. It's stylish, moody, and quite bizarre. It's also got Alec Baldwin before he abandoned the Cary Elwes method of acting and just became a cartoon of himself. (I must incidentally mention Bruce Campbell in order to round out the triumvirate of absurdly handsome actors, IMO.)<br /><br />I am also an avid fan of a sub-genre I like to call "slaction films." This includes works like Kick-Ass and The Green Hornet, as well as Zombieland, though not a superhero movie. In this same sub-set exists a piece called Super written and directed James Gunn and starring Rainn Wilson and Ellen Paige. If you don't know it, it is Kick-Ass meets Ghostworld with a healthy dose of Troma. Whether it is "good" is debatable. There are definitely "taste" issues. I would love to discuss it with anyone who has seen it.<br /><br />It's not a movie, but I would feel remiss if I didn't also mention the British TV series "Misfits" while I'm on the topic of slaction superheroes.tryanmaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881154741574720094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-52826200394055329502011-09-01T19:50:45.255-04:002011-09-01T19:50:45.255-04:00Outlaw, That's really a good point and somethi...Outlaw, That's really a good point and something I've been trying to get across all day -- people respond to story first in any genre. There is nothing inherently different about superhero films that makes this untrue... except that the studios have decided it's not true.<br /><br />But suggesting that has made me distinctly unpopular. LOL!<br /><br />I have not been to Ain't It Cool, but I'll go check it out. People can get pretty animated about their hobbies. Indeed, I'm still amazed at the war between the "Trekkies" and the "Trekkers." What a thing to fight about!AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-68087928549068816372011-09-01T19:35:35.765-04:002011-09-01T19:35:35.765-04:00Andrew, I agree that without a good story your mo...Andrew, I agree that without a good story your movie will usually fail...but that goes for almost every kind of movie there is not just a superhero movie.<br /><br />Speaking of nerds and websites, do you ever read some of the comments at Ain't It Cool? Sometimes I will go by and lurk...some of that stuff will make your head hurt.<br /><br />I guess everyone needs something they really enjoy in their lives, but some people are in dire need of some perspective.Outlaw13https://www.blogger.com/profile/17232117096525959967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-29927159369835800032011-09-01T17:55:52.365-04:002011-09-01T17:55:52.365-04:00Mike, You know, it's funny you should say that...Mike, You know, it's funny you should say that because I think most modern superhero films are aimed at adults, not kids. They've got adult stories, adult angst, adult characters and adult situations. They have largely become bad dramas with lots of special effects.<br /><br />If you want to see the difference, look at <i>Dark Knight</i> with its themes of sadism, insanity and terrorism, and compare that with superhero movies from way back... like the original <i>Batman</i> film (1968) which was melodrama with clowns for villains and heroes who were still telling kids to wear seatbelts.<br /><br />In many ways, the superhero film has entered a no-man's land where they aren't really seen as being for adults, but they aren't for kids anymore either.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-63788948874615951272011-09-01T17:44:59.433-04:002011-09-01T17:44:59.433-04:00Okay, so what superhero movies do I like? Superma...Okay, so what superhero movies do I like? Superman & Superman 2 -- although I haven't seen them in over twenty years, so my tastes might have changed.<br /><br />I remember liking the early Batman movies, but I can't recall anything specific about them.<br /><br />Iron Man was good, and The Dark Knight was better.<br /><br />But see, the genre doesn't appeal to me in itself. When I was a kid, I liked them because I thought they were neat. Now I need more than action.<br /><br />But that's not fair to the genre, because I'm complaining that the films haven't grown up with me. I'll just let the kids enjoy them, and catch the few that offer something more.Mike K.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17216987126441598720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-30781697965366492702011-09-01T17:34:02.552-04:002011-09-01T17:34:02.552-04:00Mike, Some of them are attacks. BH has a troll pr...Mike, Some of them are attacks. BH has a troll problem. I would say there are between 5-10 trolls -- 5 obvious and 5 more cleverly hidden ones. They come to BH to undermine the conversation and you'll see them follow the same patterns in article after article.<br /><br />The real key is to separate those who have a legitimate disagreement and simply aren't good at expressing themselves from those who are just blowhards or trolls. Unfortunately, that's not always easy.<br /><br />It's easy here because we know everyone. But over there, there are so many people that it gets hard to keep up with them. Though snide and condescending comments are a pretty big clue.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-91182065892368634572011-09-01T17:20:38.777-04:002011-09-01T17:20:38.777-04:00Mike, It's hard not to get snarky with someone...Mike, It's hard not to get snarky with someone who is so emphatically stating something that makes no sense.<br /><br />In truth, the internet is both a great thing and a horrible thing. One the one hand, we get to meet people we would never meet. You and I for example, would probably never run into each other without the internet.<br /><br />But on the other hand, the lack of face to face contact makes people harsher than they would normally be and it lets some people (like trolls) really take advantage of other people. In particular, I've noticed a lot of people say things that you know they would never have the guts to say in person. And that raises the tension and makes everyone unhappy.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-79931508612850612182011-09-01T17:20:31.605-04:002011-09-01T17:20:31.605-04:00We're cross-posting!
Maybe it would help not ...We're cross-posting!<br /><br />Maybe it would help not to look at them as attacks, but intense interest in what you've written, as expressed by people with no social skills?<br /><br />I'm not sure <i>how</i> that would help, exactly. You could try.Mike K.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17216987126441598720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-10775927456539591012011-09-01T17:16:17.477-04:002011-09-01T17:16:17.477-04:00I was a little snarky to that guy. I know if I we...I was a little snarky to that guy. I know if I were talking to him face-to-face I'd probably find him endearing. I don't intend to work up a sweat debating about superheroes.Mike K.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17216987126441598720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-51921474991476880062011-09-01T17:11:21.072-04:002011-09-01T17:11:21.072-04:00Mike, What's funny too, is that so many of the...Mike, What's funny too, is that so many of them are so angry about it. Several started out with just absolute attacks on my articles -- then they would go off on these tangents that had nothing to do with the article.<br /><br />One guy went on for two pages about how wrong my article was and then attacked me for a "failed analysis" because I never explained what I meant by "fails." Of course, the whole thing is explained in the first paragraph as "did not perform up to expectations".<br /><br />I think I see why almost no contributors bother responding to people anymore.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7059293386881623259.post-25913632675385302092011-09-01T17:08:14.826-04:002011-09-01T17:08:14.826-04:00Oh Mike, Don't I know it!
A couple of them fo...Oh Mike, Don't I know it!<br /><br />A couple of them followed me around and thumbed down all my comments just as fast as I could write them. How childish.<br /><br />And apparently, they don't understand two concepts:<br /><br />(1) Just because a movie generates cash does not make it a success -- you have to subtract what it cost to make the film and then compare it to what you were expecting to make as a return on your investment. In their world, the fact that these movies earned money means they were a stunning success and I am Satan for suggesting the contrary.<br /><br />(2) Just because a small collection of comic book nerds likes a particular comic book does not make it something the public knows anything about.<br /><br />And I love so much of the circular reasoning. I'm Satan because I dare to suggest that making the nerds happier will improve attendance at films... how dare I suggest that Hollywood cater to the nerds because nerds will not be catered to! They just want Hollywood to start doing what they want! Huh?<br /><br />And I love the guy you were arguing with who kept saying that only a small group of hardcore fans can truly tell you what the public at large knows and thinks. How does that work?AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.com